So what's the word, Bret?
Posted by DanH on March 17, 2015, 8:39 am 187.148.142.124
Will this end shortly or will it just keep raining as that front approaches from the west? Much as we love La Manz, we're about ready to pack it in and go home. We used to have the occasional beach vacation ruined by weather when we lived on the east coast but never expected something like this here. Town is a mess, beach is a mess and there are sewer overflows in a number of places. We're nervous about eating out anywhere given the obvious health hazards. Let alone going into the water with all these sewer overflows. I feel really bad for the local folks who depend on this time of year for their support year round. As for the sewer situation, it's pretty obvious the main issue is infiltration of storm water into the system which causes overflows. If you can't fix that problem, the way to deal with it is to direct the overflows into lagoons where it can be stabilized.
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Posted by Larry F on March 17, 2015, 9:52 am, in reply to "So what's the word, Bret?" 189.164.203.235
While one can't deny that the sewer overflows during a storm and that one solution could be to divert the storm water into the lagoon or ocean, the actual fix on this problem is likely not a simple one. I am not an engineer so won't even speculate how storm water is getting into the sewer system. A storm water system and sewage systen should not be connected in any way. One solution may be to keep the storm water out. Likely possible if some level of government throws enough pesos at it. One needs to keep in mind that storm water is polluted in its own right. It picks up animal feces, fertilizers and pesticides, garbage, grey water residues, automobile contaminents, etc. All this water that flows off the mountain and washes out roads had, before people disrupted the natural waterways created over hundreds of years, could be diverted into the lagoon. Just takes a very lot of pesos to do it. In short, it likely won't happen soon. The sewer manholes that are overflowing - two that I can see - pretty much flow directly into the ocean, and not down the streets. I'm not clear how the storm water on the street affects the quality of food you would get in a restaurant. One advantage that La Manzanilla has over places like Melaque is that storm waters flow quickly into the sea, rather than sit around in low spots or rise to dangerous levels. I would think that best proactive thing to do now would be to clean the muck off the paved streets before it dries and becomes airborn.
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Posted by Daniel H on March 17, 2015, 10:34 am, in reply to "Re: So what's the word, Bret?" 189.164.217.49
Gee Larry can you put any more doom and gloom into a post than that? The dirt coming off the hills is called mud, the amount of animal feces is about the same as it is anywhere in the world, its not going to hurt anyone. Both places that water is coming out of the manholes are mere feet from where it either goes into the Lagoon or the Rio, why would one not be clear that it has nothing to do with the quality of the food in a restaurant? Why open this topic up again? We just concluded after a very long thread that until some testing is done no one has enough information to make an accurate statement. Enough already. | ------------------------Re: So what's the word, Bret?
Posted by Nancy B on March 17, 2015, 10:55 am, in reply to "Re: So what's the word, Bret?" 201.138.182.39
When they put the sewer system in the lateral pipes to the houses and property lots that people are supposed to connect to do not have tops, so if you haven't connected the rain water goes right down the path of least resistance into the sewer. Has this been corrected? If not it should be one of the things the very great team that is looking into fixing the system and assessing the water might mention to the engineer. Seems like a easy first fix. Just top them! Maybe it has been done? anyway, thanks for the people that are putting a effort into fixing this. Enough b###hing, we now have a work in progress!!!!! | ------------------------Re: So what's the word, Bret?
Posted by jean on March 17, 2015, 10:55 am, in reply to "Re: So what's the word, Bret?" 189.164.226.68
Amen Daniel!!!!! Put a lid on it. | ------------------------Re: So what's the word, Bret?
Posted by DanH on March 17, 2015, 11:30 am, in reply to "Re: So what's the word, Bret?" 187.148.142.124
Daniel, I'm a licensed professional sanitary engineer, I've addressed problems like you have here many times over. There's nothing new or unique going on here, these kinds of problems are found in the developed world as well. In many places in the U.K. U.S. and Europe they have combined sewers. The solution there has been very expensive, building treatment plants and holding systems that are sufficient to contain and treat waste and stormwaters from really big storms. Obviously that kind of very expensive solution isn't practical here. What is practical and what has been done in a number of less developed places around the world is to use natural treatment via holding ponds as an inexpensive way to tame the problem. Not a perfect solution but far better than just having the sewers overflow and pollute the town and the ocean. Of course storm water shouldn't be getting into sewers but how many homes have water tight sewers and how many of them have illegal connections into the sewer system for yard drains? How many of the sewer pipes are properly installed and how many of them leak? I can't speak for here but in Ajijic where I live there are plenty of illegal connections and plenty of poor laid and leaking lines. And this is a relatively new system in a place where they have probably stronger controls on construction. Clearly there is a lot of storm water getting into the sewers here. Finding those leaking pipes and cross connections is going to be a very expensive process. It is unrealistic to think that sewer systems in Mexico are particularly tight and more realistic to recognize you're going to have infiltration and deal with it by using short term, cheap holding and treatment. Raw sewage overflows are a major health hazard as the stuff gets blown around, tracked around, etc. I wouldn't conclude that the only overflows are by the lagoon, arroyo, etc. Water from the street was running through some of the restaurants. It would have been carrying pathogens from the sewer overflows. And of course those that are have gone into the bay and created a short term health hazard. People need to stay out of this water for a week at least. I wouldn't walk in town or on the beach in anything less than shoes and those should be taken off at your front door. This mud in the streets is most certainly polluted and needs to be handled with care. No one should be cleaning it up without some sort of breathing protection. Aside from the problem with the sewers, the failure here to channel rain water better results in a lot of beach damage every time you get these big storms. This needs to be addressed as a separate issue, to try and channel rain waters into the bay at surf level so that the beach isn't eroded so badly. After all, the beach is the source of your livelihoods.
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Posted by Daniel H on March 17, 2015, 11:57 am, in reply to "Re: So what's the word, Bret?" 189.164.217.49
Hi Dan H, How long have you been here? Your post has several errors, flat out wrong statements and it is these kinds of statements which are uncalled for until you have either more or correct information. 1) "Water from the street was running through some of the restaurants. It would have been carrying pathogens from the sewer overflows". It is pure speculation on your part that there is any contamination other than where we see the water coming out of the man hole covers, now you take that even further and say that any rain runoff going through restaurants is contaminated. 2) "And of course those that are have gone into the bay and created a short term health hazard. People need to stay out of this water for a week at least. I wouldn't walk in town or on the beach in anything less than shoes and those should be taken off at your front door". More speculation, no testing just a guess off the top of your head, really professional stuff you got there. 3) "This mud in the streets is most certainly polluted and needs to be handled with care. No one should be cleaning it up without some sort of breathing protection". More speculation, no testing just a guess off the top of your head, really professional stuff you got there. 4) "the failure here to channel rain water better results in a lot of beach damage every time you get these big storms". There is no beach erosion problem from storm runoff. I think you should watch how you speculate, this is our town and the last thing we need is some fear monger spreading rumors. Get your information then make statements.
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Posted by Larry F on March 17, 2015, 12:02 pm, in reply to "Re: So what's the word, Bret?" 189.164.203.235
k “We can not solve our problems with the same level of thinking that created them” ― Albert Einstein Or, simply out ......... If you see a problem then there is no problem to solve. | ------------------------Re: So what's the word, Bret?
Posted by Daniel H on March 17, 2015, 12:43 pm, in reply to "Re: So what's the word, Bret?" 189.164.217.49
Larry, I'm not sure who your post is directed at but it makes no sense. First you have to know what or how much the problem actually is. Just because you see something doesn't mean worst case scenario applies. My God, DanH just said that people should not walk on the beach without shoes, don't you see a problem with someone saying such things off the top of their head? Gather information, make a plan then act accordingly. | ------------------------OMG, the sky is falling
Posted by Erin on March 17, 2015, 1:17 pm, in reply to "Re: So what's the word, Bret?" 187.148.143.239
DanH talks as if this is our first rodeo, I think for sure we this year have had 3 or 4 major rain events which has caused a considerable amount of run off and road damage, the last couple of days is just another event. This part of the coast rains from mid June to mid October (hence why they call it the rainy season), roads wash out, sewer overflow and life continues on after the event, no differently than today. To my best knowledge, we have never (knock on wood) had a major breakout of any disease resulting from the water flowing through the town. I think it is very irresponsible for chicken little to be running through town stating that we are doomed. No, now we are drying out as we have done many times before. Having said that, could the entire infra-structure be improved, YES, but at whose expense. We live and enjoy an almost ZERO based tax life, so who is going to pay for the improvements? I would like to see DanH write a cheque or give CASH (which is even better) to start the improvements. Oh yes, we need a plan, well there is the first job that needs attention, the making of a plan. Well Mr. Dan, how about volunteering to meet with the ejido to discuss some options instead of pretending we have a disaster on our hands. Fortunately for many of us, the water does in fact run down hill and eventually flows into the sea, where the tides will deal with it in a timely fashion. Again, this is nothing new or different other than the fact, the latest rainfall was in March instead of June. I agree with Daniel, scaring the crap out of everyone is not a constructive solution to anything and I for one think your delivery (message) is the thing that is full of crap. | ------------------------Re: OMG, the sky is falling
Posted by David Dagoli on March 17, 2015, 1:23 pm, in reply to "OMG, the sky is falling" 187.148.174.9
I believe if you talk to ejiditarios or the delegado, you will find out that the University of Guadalajara has been sending a team of biologists annually (for at least 5 years) to test the waters in the La Manzanilla lagoon. So far, tests have not shown the presence of parasites or an excessive bacterial load. I can't confirm this beyond what I have heard... | ------------------------Re: So what's the word, Bret?
Posted by Neal on March 17, 2015, 1:24 pm, in reply to "Re: So what's the word, Bret?" 187.148.185.175
Interestingly Los Angeles has a combined sewer rain water system and guess what happens when it rains really hard? It overruns the waste treatment capacity and dumps right into the Pacific. I don't think I am too worried about contamination at this point. If you look at how much water has flowed through this very small pueblo the dilution factor has to be sky high. I have heard 10 to 14 inches fell depending on elevation. The visual impact on the bay is already starting to dissipate. I'm way more concerned about having an accident on the way to Melaque because of the potholes. Of course I can't get my car off the hill yet so I don't even have to worry about that. | ------------------------Re: So what's the word, Bret?
Posted by Daniel H on March 17, 2015, 1:35 pm, in reply to "Re: So what's the word, Bret?" 189.164.217.49
Thanks for the lighthearted touch Neil, this thread and topic needs that. There are several unknowns. How many people are hooked up to the sewer? Probably less than 30 and each of those hookups are coming from the leach line connection of a septic tank which has treated the waste. We have no idea of what the contamination level of the water coming out of the manholes even is, yet some are acting as if it is certain death to even approach it. Back to the main point of this topic, we need more data to know anything. | ------------------------Foso's and Septic tanks and where does the shit go ?
Posted by Dave on March 17, 2015, 10:57 pm, in reply to "Re: So what's the word, Bret?"
I was under the impression that most toilet shit discharge lines went into bottomless brick walled "Fosos" which basically took raw crap and dropped it into the ground. Does any one know where to Purchase rural two stage septic tanks or anyone have one built? ALSO where do the sewer lines go? and how is it treated?
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Posted by Larry F on March 18, 2015, 9:22 am, in reply to "Foso's and Septic tanks and where does the shit go ?" 189.164.203.235
Daniel, perhaps you might take your own advice and stick to the facts. As Dave has just said, septic systems in La Manzanilla do not 'treat' raw sewage in the sense that you suggest ..... that is, rendering it somewhat safe to the environment. To my knowledge there are few leach fields in town. Rather, the double tank system separates out much of the solid waste so that the liquid can leach out into the ground. Properly built septic tanks do of course break down the waste, to a degree, through a complex chemical process. However, properly functioning septic systems do require proper maintenance and periodic pumping out. Without this maintenance and care, the wastewater will contain disease-causing bacteria and viruses, household chemicals, and excess nutrients. All of these contaminants can cause serious health problems. I would suggest that water emerging from overflowing manholes just MIGHT be contaminated. Yes, resist pushing the panic button until proper testing is done. Since the tests just might confirm what many people now believe, the topic may be worthy of more THOUGHTFUL discussion. If you, and a few others, are tired of it, don't read it. But at least don't put down those who want to continue. | ------------------------Re: Foso's and Septic tanks and where does the shit go ?
Posted by Daniel H on March 18, 2015, 9:59 am, in reply to "Re: Foso's and Septic tanks and where does the shit go ?" 189.164.217.49
Zero problem with discussion (guessing) if your into that sort of thing, BIG problem with professionals making statements without data. Dave said he was "under the impression" yet you read that as a statement of fact. It is called conformation bias "the tendency to search for, interpret, or recall information in a way that confirms one's beliefs or hypotheses" we all do it. Personally I am open about the sewer issue however it turns out, bad, we fix it, not so bad we don't fix it, I just don't want to see people freaked out until the data is obtained. You seem to be invested in having the worst results possible just so you can run around saying "I told you so". | ------------------------Re: Foso's and Septic tanks and where does the shit go ?
Posted by Larry F on March 18, 2015, 10:27 am, in reply to "Re: Foso's and Septic tanks and where does the shit go ?" 189.164.203.235
'Confirmation bias'? My comment about local septic tanks was based on the fact that I know how most septic tanks are built here, not on Dave's comments Why would you say that I am looking for worst possible result? I have said all along that it could be that there is no problem in terms of a health risk. There is, however, a possibility that there is, and that's why we need more data. I am pleased that this is happening, so no need to say anything more.
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Posted by mark on March 18, 2015, 12:21 pm, in reply to "Foso's and Septic tanks and where does the shit go ?" 64.134.152.239
Dave- I made my own septic tank using an 1100 liter tinaco which I embedded in the ground. I used a panel from a 55 gallon poly-barrel as a baffle in the tank to improve separation of solids from effluent. After the outlet I put in a cleanout and manifolded that to two four inch leech lines, each 54 feet long. The leach lines are embedded in a gravel field about five feet wide and four feet thick. The top of the gravel bed is protected with engineering cloth before backfilling. I had to make the perf pipe, because it is not available locally, by drilling holes every four inches along the center line of the pipe. Perf pipes are installed with a fall of about one-eighth inch per foot. I tested the percolation with a garden hose before I backfilled and all the flow leached out in less than twenty feet of pipe. My bathroom floor is installed over the tank with an access cover, should I ever need to have the tank pumped out. And the cleanout is outside, in case I ever need to burn out the leach lines with caustic soda. Mark | ------------------------
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