Water Meeting Report
Posted by Larry F on February 23, 2018, 4:25 pm
I'll start this off and maybe others could add as I'm not sure I heard everything right. A general summary: 1. About 70 or so foreigners and a few Mexicans present. (Mexicans will have a separate meeting) 2.Morgan explained that there is an immediate water system need and a looming long-term crisis. There are some solutions. Short-term 1. An old pump should be (will be?) replaced with a bigger pump in order to increase delivery capacity. This could happen soon if government funding comes through and/or local funds are raised. 2. Because of the second successive drought year, there is a lack of water. It is planned to drill one of the two wells deeper to access more water. Again, requires funding. 3. Morgan, as manager of the system, suffers from lack of cash flow to manage a short-tern fix. This is because only 40% of water users pay their water tax. 4. Pumps consume a lot of electricity. There is insufficient cash to pay the electric bill, which must be monitored constantly. 5. Pumps can be run only so long. When first on, high demand at lower elevations restrict flow to higher elevations, meaning houses higher up do not get sufficient water. 6. Many people are being forced to buy water, which comes from the same aquifer. The town gets no revenue from these water sales. 7. To generate more cash flow, water rates have been increased by 100% immediately. Those who have already paid the old rate this year are asked to pay to him the remaining due. Long-term 1. Nothing can be done about Tamarindo or Four Seasons using large volumes of water and even larger amounts in future. 2. The Municipality will likely need to take over management of water for the town and may look at installing water meters to make sure people pay and pay an equitable share for water. 3. The cost of water will rise. 4. Primi, President of the Ejido, explained the the Ejido is committed to a long-term solution to the water issues. This includes to drilling of an additional well, but this won't happen soon. Important: It is absolutely essential that EVERYONE pay their water taxes to Morgan now. Pay at the bike shop. Morgan is deeply committed to getting water to every household but he needs help. Morgan received public thanks for his years of dedicated service to the people of La Manzanilla.
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Posted by Rudy on February 23, 2018, 4:41 pm, in reply to "Water Meeting Report"
I was at this meeting and am still puzzled why the increase of 100% of the water bill!!Seems to me that if 60 % of those that don't pay its not my responsibility to make up the difference! And who authorized this increase? Looking forward for the "meeting" with the Mexican locals and home owners. | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Diana Schroeder on February 23, 2018, 4:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Daniel H on February 23, 2018, 5:04 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report" Edited by board administrator February 23, 2018, 5:10 pm
Thank you for that report Larry. I look forward to your report from that meeting Rudy. Rudy, could you ask for me if there is some sort of reduced rate from CFE on the water pump electric bill. Thanks, | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by paco on February 24, 2018, 1:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
for christ sakes it will be an increase of $35 USD PER YEAR. give me break. if u can't afford that leave town.paco | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Lynne on February 24, 2018, 3:06 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
Have you asked your Mexican neighbors how thrilled they are to see their water bills double every year because the majority of their fellow townsfolk aren't paying their fair share? They cannot leave town because they live here and, to my knowledge, they do not possess US dollars. | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Jean on February 24, 2018, 3:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
Lynne, when you ask your Mexican neighbors that question, let us know how it goes. Post away, thanks. | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Lynne on February 24, 2018, 7:37 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
All of my neighbors (three families) are Mexican, and all of them are furious that many folks who can afford to pay do not, increasing the burden on everyone else. This is an English-language board, and my objection was to the "it's only 35 dollars" comment, as if everyone in town had dollars and 35 of them is a small amount of money. To many local families, that amount (in pesos) is NOT a drop in the bucket when they struggle to pay their other bills. | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Valerie on February 23, 2018, 4:46 pm, in reply to "Water Meeting Report"
I think you hit all the major points. Larry. I thought I heard that while the old pump is working as hard as it can, it can only provide just so much pressure which is exacerbating the delivery problem. There IS water, but at a much lower level than the pump can manage, so pressure is down - so delivery is reduced. It was also suggested that many of the locals might not realize just how much of a problem this is for the town and we should all encourage them NOT to water the streets. Yes we all know it is to reduce the dust, but we'd rather have dust AND water than just no dust. Morgan literally has nights of no sleep worrying about our water problem and the solutions to fix it. One of his greatest and more imminent concerns is paying the electricity bill. When I heard that ONLY 40% of the people pay their water fee I was horrified that so many people are taking advantage. Where the hell is your moral compass that you would own a large home, maybe have a couple of rentals and a swimming pool and you WON"T pay your share of the water????? If La Huerta has to come in and put in water meters for each house you're going to pay many times MORE for your water than you are being asked to voluntarily contribute. If you don't pay it then - you will be shut off. The law has changed so beware! So ends my rant . . . . for now. | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by chris schlear on February 23, 2018, 6:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
la manzanilla what a mexican shithole! | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by David Dagoli on February 23, 2018, 7:52 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
The meeting today was very well-attended and succesful. I was asked to post a message by Lucero Castelazo, who was the facilitator and translator for the meeting. "This is the outcome of the Emergency Water Meeting today, February 23, 2018 Mr. Morgan (water system manager) will be running the water pump for more hours, for the whole town to receive sufficient water. There is presently not enough money to pay the electricity bill, and to buy the new pump that is required to replace the 15-year-old one we have now. This is the reason that we need to pay double the amount that we have been paying for water - which has been very very cheap. Mr. Morgan will be at the Ejido Hall Office this coming Monday Feb. 26, from 9 am to 2 pm, to accept water payments and donations. You can also pay at his home - Lupita's Bike Shop. Please pay your 2018 water bill and if you have paid already, please go to pay the other half. If you know someone that hasn't paid, encourage them to do so. At the meeeting today, contributions from four people were received to go towards expenses. The total received was 6,200 pesos. We urgently need your support to cover these additional expenses for electricity and the new pump. The Bookstore has also offered to receive contributions on behalf of Morgan. Thank you for helping in this emergency situation." -Lucero Castelazo
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Posted by Erin on February 23, 2018, 8:21 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
I can not speak for anyone else but last year there was a 100% increase in the water bill over the previous year, I agree with one of the other writers, that to increase the payers bills to supplement the non payers, will never solve the payment issue as there is certainly no incentive for those non payers to pay their share. I have no issue with increased water costs as our general tax base is non existent however, for those who struggle with the current levy, a 100% increase will only make it that much more difficult. I think the ejido has to talk to the locals to explain the situation more clearly. Perhaps this is the first step in resolving this issue in the neat future. And for the individual who does not like the town, may I suggest that a ride to the bus station might be in order but I love this small town and only want to see it improve. | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Jim on February 23, 2018, 9:50 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
Perhaps Chris Schlear can post his picture to clear up what a shithead looks like ? | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by monte morgan on February 24, 2018, 10:05 am, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
Yo Chris! Word up! Bout sunset time, amble on down to the beach and join the tequila green flash gazing crowd. I am sure that you will have a "lively conversation" with locals and visitors about just how awful Mexico and La Manzanilla in particular are. Wear your kevlar. | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by paco on February 24, 2018, 1:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
then ####ing leave and never comeback | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Lynne on February 23, 2018, 10:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
I'm afraid I don't understand how water meters would change anything. Surely Morgan knows who pays his or her water bill and who doesn't. Isn't it possible to shut off the water of non-payers without installing a meter first? Guess not? | ------------------------"From each according to his (her) ability..."
Posted by Mark S. on February 24, 2018, 5:45 am, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
Not that I'm a Marxist but I do think that I am blessed to live here and lucky that I can afford to do so year around. Although a permanent resident of Mexico and LM, I still consider myself a guest and if paying more for water helps the community, I don't think it's too much to ask. Worrying about other folks who don't pay their bills doesn't seem to be very productive nor likely to improve our water problems. My two cents... | ------------------------Re: "From each according to his (her) ability..."
Posted by Lynne on February 24, 2018, 12:14 pm, in reply to ""From each according to his (her) ability...""
According to Morgan's wife, my former landlord (who threatened to have me deported for refusing to pay his electric bill) has never paid his water bill. He has a large house and three rental bungalows on his property. If someone wants to pay his water bill, go right ahead. Why not pay his CFE bill while you're at it? Unless a "means test" is applied, I think that ethical people will simply end up subsidizing unethical people. Alas, I cannot afford to do that. | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by William on February 24, 2018, 7:19 am, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
I do not live in La Manz I am a Brit living in the Caribbean. I visited your lovely town last year and have joined this chat board since last year. It is inconceivable that there are people who do not pay for water in this day and age. Unless of course they are simply unable to pay. Why not consider forming a team to go around and visit the none payers and those who appear capable of paying but refuse or just fail to pay, NAME AND SHAME THEM in local newspapers and sites like this. I know it's none of my business but my heart bleeds for your predicament. William | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by William on February 24, 2018, 7:25 am, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
If there are commercial properties such as shops, stores, restaurants etc that fail to pay for water. Tell them that those of you that currently pay will boycott their facility unless they pay. If the still do not pay, do just that do not use their services or buy anything from them. Even offer an amnesty for past water fees due, tell them if they start paying NOW the past bills will be forgiven. | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Pierre on February 24, 2018, 9:18 am, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
I totally agree with Mark.s..Most of the people on this thread who come from the “North” can surely absorb any increase in the water bill which as nothing to compare to what any of us had or have to pay back where we live. The town needs the money and regardless of who pays,money is needed NOW to insure water supply while other long term solutions are being worked on. The survival of the town is at stake here.If there is no water,there won’t be a tow anymore. That’ my humble opinion. | ------------------------Part of the solution or part of the problem?
Posted by Dean on February 24, 2018, 10:04 am, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
Here's a shout out to Mark...and agree with him 100%. Personally for myself the naming and shaming has not worked for any of us, how does that make the issue better? Right, it doesn't!! Let's be part of the solution here gang, better vibe all the way around. United we stand... | ------------------------Re: Part of the solution or part of the problem?
Posted by Neal on February 24, 2018, 11:31 am, in reply to "Part of the solution or part of the problem?"
One additional idea I would like to throw out there is this. The Ejido should find someone else to do the fee collection. Morgan seems like are real nice guy and has more than enough to do keeping the system working. Everybody hates the bill collector so maybe some one a little tougher would be more effective. | ------------------------Re: Part of the solution or part of the problem?
Posted by Art Elliott on February 24, 2018, 11:42 am, in reply to "Re: Part of the solution or part of the problem?"
First, we absolutely have no problem doubling our payment for the water. Second, would please someone explain why the non-payers' water can not just be shut off. | ------------------------Re: Part of the solution or part of the problem?
Posted by mary shanti on February 24, 2018, 11:52 am, in reply to "Re: Part of the solution or part of the problem?"
I support Neal in his suggestion!! Today some were talking of a debt collector and that sounds like a viable way to go. I have no problem with increased water bills although I believe that all "guests" in Mexico would benefit for paying what they owe. Just my two cents worth. | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Erin on February 24, 2018, 12:04 pm, in reply to "Water Meeting Report"
Perhaps there is another solution not to be overlooked, I am sure for those individuals who haven't paid, haven't done so in many years and are concerned about going in and dealing with the back and present issues off payment, have someone in charge post a notice forgiving delinquent acccounts should an individual pay the current amount, this offer would only be open for a cerrtain period of time, then individuals might be encouraged to pay this year and future years. Only a thought, but the word needs to get out to the non payers. | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Larry F on February 24, 2018, 12:37 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
I'm liking the generation of ideas on encouraging people to pay their water bills. The water system is operated solely on user contributions and the current contribution amount of 40% of users will not pay for the electricity and pump upgrades. Metering the water won't happen. Too expensive to implement and difficult to install. Shaming people publically pits people against each other and not likely the kind of community we want. Door to door canvassing of foreign-owned houses could work but who would do it. I like Erin's suggestion of asking Morgan if past due accounts could be waived upon payment of present fees. Then get the word out ....... talking to friends and neighbours who haven't paid. Be gentle on them. This is about building community.
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Posted by Craig B on February 24, 2018, 1:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
Thanks to all who are working on this. Of course everyone should pay their water bill. My wife and I will commit to pay $50 USD toward new pump. | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Daniel H on February 24, 2018, 2:32 pm, in reply to "Water Meeting Report"
I assume that most of the cost of water is the electric bills to pump it out of the ground and distribute it. I wonder if there may be some savings in using a generator? One nice side effect would be that we still have water when the power is out. | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Jean on February 24, 2018, 2:46 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by davidstrand on February 24, 2018, 3:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
Are SOLAR pumps available❓ | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Neal on February 24, 2018, 4:29 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
Great idea David, my brother in law in California had a special direct current water pump run off solar panels. He lived off grid so it made sense for him. Not sure it would make sense here. It was pricey. | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Erin on February 24, 2018, 4:42 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
As a general comment, gen/pump units are expensive to run, most likely many times more expensive than CFE, require a fair amount of maintenance and are subject to a lot of attention; as far as solar is concerned, if one had a solar farm, yes that would be a solution but not very cost effective. I don't know what the horsepower of the motor is but I would guess a min of 20 hp which is 20 kilowatt. Can someone answer this question, if the cost of running the pump can be met and the pump can be increased to provide a greater capacity of water, is the water available for delivery? This is our 9th year in town, 6th as a homeowner, the problem has got worst each and every year. Can someone as Morgan is the aquifer has sufficient water available to service our community? I think that should be the first question if the answer is yes, then we need to know what our cost options are, not just a plea that we need more money. I would like to see an accounting of what it costs to run the system as it is now, I feel there are enough interested parties that funds could be raised if we know where they are being directed. Presently I think there are just too many unanswered questions for any quick solution to be adopted. | ------------------------Re: Water Meeting Report
Posted by Larry F on February 24, 2018, 5:13 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
Quality questions Erin. I think I heard yesterday that the pump needed was 20 HP. As to water availability over the long term, Morgan explained that one of the existing wells could be deepened ($$$$) and the bigger pump ($$$$) would service the town's needs over the SHORT TERM. He is committed to achieving these goals in the next short while. Over the long term, there are consumption issues - growth of town, Four Seasons Hotel, climate change. The Ejido is planning to establish a water committee (Mexicans only!!!) to study a long1term solution. This includes new wells, storage tanks on the mountain and conservation methods (I think I made the last one up). The President of the Ejido proclaimed that the Ejido is committed to the long-term solution. There was a general acknowledgement that the Municipality would likely assume control of the water utility. (Is this good or bad???)
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Posted by Jean on February 24, 2018, 8:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
What does the "next short while"mean? And, while I'm at it, never about the sewer meeting. Guess nothing happened, same as what's going to not happen with this. Everyone will go back home and forget about it til next years rentals. | ------------------------Get 4 Seasons involved
Posted by Daniel C on February 25, 2018, 10:56 am, in reply to "Re: Water Meeting Report"
I assume they paid the ejido to drive heavy vehicles through town for the next 2-3 years. Get them to make sure that LAM has efficient water which will be to their benefit when their tourists want to visit our beautiful village.Deep pockets and corporate social responsibility should come into play in situations like this. | ------------------------Re: Get 4 Seasons involved
Posted by CraigB on February 25, 2018, 11:05 am, in reply to "Get 4 Seasons involved"
Why is it so difficult to get everyone to pay there water bill? This is the most obvious source to improve the funding stream. No pay, no water should do the trick. Hardship appeals could be in the mix, but not blatant disregard by folks who can and should pay. Publishing a list of names of folks who do not pay should be considered to apply peer pressure. | ------------------------another idea
Posted by Ross on February 25, 2018, 12:24 pm, in reply to "Re: Get 4 Seasons involved"
All utilities have to be paid or they get cut off. People understand this but if they don't pay the water bill, as it stands for now, they don't get cut off. My idea- 1)Send notice to the whole town via the announcement truck that water will be cut off for those who haven't paid, at a certain date in the near future. Only this years bill need to be paid. And if they don't pay they will be charged the labor involved plus their bill for water combined to get it back on. 2)Make good on the threat and start digging up the tomas(water connection under the street) of a few offenders and turn off their water. The word will pass very quickly that Morgan means business this time. I bet the money from unpaid water will flow in.(pun intended) That's my idea, very simple and something people will understand. You don't miss your water 'til Morgan turns it off! | ------------------------Re: another idea
Posted by charley farrero on February 26, 2018, 7:55 am, in reply to "another idea"
Let's face it. This is mexico. No civic responsibilities Morgan does not have the authority to dig up the street, and shut water off. i do not think he wants to create that many enemies.Shaming mexican people does not work.Dangerous consequences. And may be, us (from the north ,with civic duty) we pay our bills and make donations, to cover some maintenance costs (CFE ,pump). I am just a renter here but l will make a donation today. For my information ? Do people get water bills? How are they delivered? my dos pesos.
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Posted by stephanie on February 26, 2018, 8:09 am, in reply to "Re: another idea"
or lack of...and it is called drought...for two years we have experienced less than normal rainwater to catch in our tanks...and unless we start conserving more the existing aquifer will no longer be of service to any of us! While a new pump is necessary and that takes money it only makes sense to pay more to explore deeper depths and all the while conserving what we have at present! There are no individual meters nor an easy access to shut off non-payers without digging up the streets..it is an honor system. And those of us with pools and gardens and massive pots that take lots of water so our yards our lush and jungly should by rights pay more to offset those here with less of the above. For years I have been amazed and bragged about how cheap the water is here...well, it is time to face up with have less and without rain...who knows what position we may find ourselves in in the very near future. I have mentioned that those that do not want to make the trek to pay directly to Morgan or Lupita can drop off money in a sealed envelope at the bookstore and I will make sure he receives it. Is it not our responsibility to help when we ourselves have taken more than our fair share? | ------------------------Short fixes for now perhaps BUT WHAT ABOUT THE FUTURE
Posted by Cruz on February 25, 2018, 1:22 pm, in reply to "Re: Get 4 Seasons involved"
1. You can count on LM getting more people and more buildings, thus needing more water; so more pumps, bigger tubing, more storage capability, etc., etc,. 2. A good water system that can accommodate growth and maintenance needs planning, planning, planning. There are lots of good ideas to play with. Who will do this and pay for it? Or will it be like our downtown water drainage that doesn't happen because it wasn't planned. 3. How much growth can this little Ejido take on without it falling on the resident expats time and time again; now the water, then the sewer, then etc., etc,. 4. 4 Seasons doesn't pay their workers well, so what makes us think that they will pay for their workers water, sewage, roads, etc. More likely they will continue to use or make LM pay whenever they can get away with it, like they are doing now. So what might be a long term solution for water and sewer? They go together, right? Put the responsibility of providing water and sewer service where it belongs, on the County, La Huerta because it can leverage State and Federal funding for an expensive commodity that is their obligation to provide. Both ends of it, lol. A larger pump might mitigate needed water distribution now but the existing and future water and sewer problems are larger still. Like plugging the hole in the wall (dike) with a finger, or how does that fable or story go? And subsidies could be part of the picture so that everyone is able to contribute for their water and can pay some for their s__t too, lol. Lets not be shortsighted, myopic, and consider the future. Lets not jump. As Larry F. said, some accounting and projection might produce a needed clearer picture that sheds light on a better product for now. Mis dos centavos, Cruz
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Posted by Ross on February 25, 2018, 2:01 pm, in reply to "Short fixes for now perhaps BUT WHAT ABOUT THE FUTURE"
You have to start somewhere. Shortage of money has always been the problem if you speak with Morgan. The future does need some planning but for right now we need a good pump and maybe more depth on the well. There are people doing without adequate water not far up the hill from the town flats. The aquifer is low due to drought for 2 years so deeper wells and more of them seems to be the obvious. The planning part, well, was that not what the meeting was all about? This problem was created by nature and town growth. Morgan is doing what he can. This town is ejido and the taxes we pay are not including water management, sewer, and so on like they do from the taxes we pay NOB. Sure, La Huerta should be notified of the situation, but don't expect quick action on their part, they would think "Well, why don't the people of La Manzanilla pay for their water?" I think, for now, if people paid their water bills it would alleviate a lot of the problems. | ------------------------Re: Get 4 Seasons involved
Posted by Mazinka on February 25, 2018, 2:19 pm, in reply to "Re: Get 4 Seasons involved"
The 1917 Mexican Constitution gives the state the property rights for water and accordingly, cutting off water services from inhabited buildings is prohibited 'Article 121 of the Ley General de Salud), unless expilicitly allowed by a local law. Cutting off household water is unconstitutional in many countries around the world and I don't think would solve our problem anyway. The water bill is set up in such a way that it can be paid monthly which works out to be 50 pesos a month. Surely even the humblest of households could afford that? What has to be addressed is the sense of apathy and irresponsibility which could be turned around by educating the community on the problem and how to conserve water. | ------------------------Re: Get 4 Seasons involved
Posted by Ross on February 25, 2018, 4:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Get 4 Seasons involved"
Maybe Morgan has become aware of the constitution law because he always talked to me about cutting off non payers in the past but I haven't heard of him doing lately. If it is true then there is nothing to force people to pay. Like you said, Mazinka, there is educating the people to be responsible but what does the average resident care that people with pools, lawns and gardens, and villas on the mountain are low on water when their water is still running on the lower levels where most of the locals live. I guess it comes back to the people developing and building up on the hills to figure it out. It will be hard to persuade people to not water the street, as they have always done, when dust from traffic comes pouring into their homes everyday. The problem is complex with the mixing of cultures and their needs.
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